Chants & cheers, redux

[scottcomstock]

I just caught an interesting article in yesterday's Albany Times Union (thanks to All Over Albany (http://alloveralbany.com/archive/2011/02/28/can-you-still-say-five-hole-be)) on a topic that's been discussed here a number of times before. It seems our friends at Union are cracking down hard on vulgar chants & cheers, but students are saying it goes too far. They also explore the measures taken at other local universities, including RPI and Cornell (but not Clarkson, go figure), and students' reactions to the rules. (Personal comment: Unfortunately for us, they described what the RPI crowd yells out when the clock winds down on ANY opponent)

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Union-s-goal-No-foul-mouths-1032242.php

Some of you may also recall my fairly lengthy essay on the subject (http://www.letsgotech.com/roundtable/showthread.php?1372-Chants-amp-Cheers) a few years ago, when a local family's complaints about the cheers at Cheel wound up in the Watertown newspaper.

Thoughts?

[daredevilcu]

I agree. A college hockey game also has families with kids attending and students can be just as active and loud without being vulgar

Vulgarity is subjective. And you don't have to be the parent that explains to their kid why "SLU Swallows" is offensive. They aren't going to know the difference unless you tell them.

I'm very against cutting the legs out from under the student section. There are certain cheers that are rightfully frowned upon, but if you're tossing people out for yelling "sucks" there's a problem.

Also, cheers such as the O-R-G-Y cheer I can understand not wanting the student section shouting "orgy" en masse, but if they were to simply say "O-R-G-Y what does that spell? Team work!" and drop the "orgy!" from it, I don't see the problem.

The further you take the definition of vulgar, the less room and motivation there will be for those who want to be creative.

[rangersfan94]

I agree. A college hockey game also has families with kids attending and students can be just as active and loud without being vulgar

Why would that even cross a college students mind? They typically don't have children of their own. They are there to blow off steam(like I was)...and paying quite a bit to do it I might add. You might argue that paying a lot in tuition does not make them entitled. However, lets not fool ourselves into thinking that this about creating a family atmosphere....its about money, like everything else.

[Brett Gobe]

Clarkson never has this problem because the University just takes it out on the Pep Band.

[daredevilcu]

Yes, yes I would. And thank you for proving that it is subjective :)

[scottcomstock]

I don't harbor any illusions that it isn't about anything but money. During my time at Clarkson, I don't remember seeing quite as many ads around Cheel as there are now. Aside from advertising income, colleges are looking to boost paid attendance at these games any way they can; one of the best ways they can do that is by attracting local families. However, most families are not going to want to take their kids to a college hockey game if it's going to turn into something out of an Andrew Dice Clay routine.

That said, I personally believe that banning "sucks" is going a little too far. It's too pervasive an expression these days, and has been for quite a long time. Unfortunately, as daredevilcu pointed out, vulgarity is subjective. What works in Cheel may not go over so well at another rink, and I agree that athletics departments and arena staff need to be very clear in how they communicate their expectations for student behavior; as the TU article stated, allowing "see ya [expletive]" while banning "sucks" doesn't make a lot of sense.

However, I also believe it's possible for a student section and/or pep band to come up with ways to get under an opponent's skin without resorting to foul language. Ken Dryden of Cornell famously stated that his biggest irritation was the Clarkson bell.

Here's a question for those of you who attend pro games: what kind of stuff do you usually hear from the stands?

[Brett Gobe]

I don't harbor any illusions that it isn't about anything but money. During my time at Clarkson, I don't remember seeing quite as many ads around Cheel as there are now. Aside from advertising income, colleges are looking to boost paid attendance at these games any way they can; one of the best ways they can do that is by attracting local families. However, most families are not going to want to take their kids to a college hockey game if it's going to turn into something out of an Andrew Dice Clay routine.

That said, I personally believe that banning "sucks" is going a little too far. It's too pervasive an expression these days, and has been for quite a long time. Unfortunately, as daredevilcu pointed out, vulgarity is subjective. What works in Cheel may not go over so well at another rink, and I agree that athletics departments and arena staff need to be very clear in how they communicate their expectations for student behavior; as the TU article stated, allowing "see ya [expletive]" while banning "sucks" doesn't make a lot of sense.

However, I also believe it's possible for a student section and/or pep band to come up with ways to get under an opponent's skin without resorting to foul language. Ken Dryden of Cornell famously stated that his biggest irritation was the Clarkson bell.

Here's a question for those of you who attend pro games: what kind of stuff do you usually hear from the stands?

If you're a Leafs fans you hear the sound of sadness, and flying waffles.

[FireKnight]

It's a college hockey game. Last time I checked, college students (with the possible exceptions of schoolies and Doogie Howser) are all over the age of 17. I have no problem with them using the band to "drown out" the more vulgar chants, but not allowing the students to do what they please, so long as they aren't using hate speech or discriminatory speech is too much.

The University is not in a position to be a parent to young children attending hockey games. I went to Yankee games and Army football games at the age of 5 and I was never once "offended" by the actions of others. One guy threw a beer at a Blue Jays' fan roaming The Stadium in 1985 during the playoff race and my thought as an 11-year-old was "that's why I'll never drink beer because it makes people do stupid things". (OK, so I was wrong on that one.) I think parents massively overstate what really has an effect on their children.

Besides, how are they going to stop 500 students chanting "boat - ship".

[Stripes55]

Here's a question for those of you who attend pro games: what kind of stuff do you usually hear from the stands?

Sadly, nothing organized. In the 17 or so years I've been regularly going to pro games (Syracuse Crunch, Philadelphia Phantoms, Phaildelphia Flyers), the only thing I've heard is "Ref you suck". Well, that and the "Hey ref you suck!" chant during the Chicken Dance here in Philly, which I'll take credit for being part of the group that started that.

Interesting note: I've also been to a few Hershey Bears games. They have an organized "bullsh*t" chant, where they spell it out and then say it. And there's never any warning after it about abusive/profane language....

[FireKnight]

Sadly, nothing organized. In the 17 or so years I've been regularly going to pro games (Syracuse Crunch, Philadelphia Phantoms, Phaildelphia Flyers), the only thing I've heard is "Ref you suck". Well, that and the "Hey ref you suck!" chant during the Chicken Dance here in Philly, which I'll take credit for being part of the group that started that.

Interesting note: I've also been to a few Hershey Bears games. They have an organized "bullsh*t" chant, where they spell it out and then say it. And there's never any warning after it about abusive/profane language....

You've never sat in the Blue seats at MSG. :p

[Brett Gobe]

Sadly, nothing organized. In the 17 or so years I've been regularly going to pro games (Syracuse Crunch, Philadelphia Phantoms, Phaildelphia Flyers), the only thing I've heard is "Ref you suck". Well, that and the "Hey ref you suck!" chant during the Chicken Dance here in Philly, which I'll take credit for being part of the group that started that.

Interesting note: I've also been to a few Hershey Bears games. They have an organized "bullsh*t" chant, where they spell it out and then say it. And there's never any warning after it about abusive/profane language....

Best thing that Flyers fans have ever done was in a playoff series against Buffalo there was a break and the organist started playing the theme from the Adam's Family. When it came to the snaps part of the song, the fans in unison and quite audibly responded, "SABRES SUCK!"

It still makes me chuckle to this day.

[Bill]

You've never sat in the Blue seats at MSG. :p
Never sat up there in MSG - always got good seats, but the Rangers fans used to dump beer on us in Hartford after a loss - tried to avoid Rangers games in Hartford when possible - I believe they were the worst (and probably the most) visiting fans at games there - glad they weren't in Adams Division back then.

[Goldie Knight]

Tuesday, March 1, 2011 8 PM

My favorite remembrance of the "s" word at a hockey arena took place between five and ten years ago at the Houston Field House. As I was busy putting up 8 by 10 inch signs of encouragement for the Golden Knights on the glass behind their bench, I happened to look across the ice and up above the stands. I was dumbfounded to see a huge banner, which could be read from practically anywhere in the arena. It stated in the boldest of letters, "And Clarkson still sucks". The Golden Knights and their coaches had to see this outrageous, disgraceful portrayal of RPI's feelings towards them and their fans throughout the game. Needless to say, that type of obscenity did not set well with adults either.

When we returned home Sunday after spending the weekend in the Albany area, it was my decision to write a letter to the RPI Athletic Director expressing our concerns about the indecency of such banners. It is one thing to chant and say negative things about an opponent, but this banner was extremely distasteful to continually view. As you might have anticipated, we have returned to RPI annually since that fateful evening, and that disgusting banner has never again flown at the Houston Field House.

I know that Scott Smalling, the Director of Cheel Arena, is very particular about displaying signs with inappropriate verbiage....it just doesn't happen at Cheel. We do have families with young children in attendance at the games, and it seems logical that we at least keep signs that do not have acceptable wording out of their public view.

On the other hand, I believe it is important for students and the Pep Band members to be able to have a good time at Cheel. I don't have any problems with their behavior, and I do rather enjoy watching some of their taunting antics.

Will Friday ever get here?

KNOW NO LIMITS, CLARKSON GOLDEN KNIGHTS!

[rangersfan94]

Tuesday, March 1, 2011 8 PM

My favorite remembrance of the "s" word at a hockey arena took place between five and ten years ago at the Houston Field House. As I was busy putting up 8 by 10 inch signs of encouragement for the Golden Knights on the glass behind their bench, I happened to look across the ice and up above the stands. I was dumbfounded to see a huge banner, which could be read from practically anywhere in the arena. It stated in the boldest of letters, "And Clarkson still sucks". The Golden Knights and their coaches had to see this outrageous, disgraceful portrayal of RPI's feelings towards them and their fans throughout the game. Needless to say, that type of obscenity did not set well with adults either.

When we returned home Sunday after spending the weekend in the Albany area, it was my decision to write a letter to the RPI Athletic Director expressing our concerns about the indecency of such banners. It is one thing to chant and say negative things about an opponent, but this banner was extremely distasteful to continually view. As you might have anticipated, we have returned to RPI annually since that fateful evening, and that disgusting banner has never again flown at the Houston Field House.

I know that Scott Smalling, the Director of Cheel Arena, is very particular about displaying signs with inappropriate verbiage....it just doesn't happen at Cheel. We do have families with young children in attendance at the games, and it seems logical that we at least keep signs that do not have acceptable wording out of their public view.

On the other hand, I believe it is important for students and the Pep Band members to be able to have a good time at Cheel. I don't have any problems with their behavior, and I do rather enjoy watching some of their taunting antics.

Will Friday ever get here?

KNOW NO LIMITS, CLARKSON GOLDEN KNIGHTS!

Goldie,

So you enjoy our antics against the other team, but not when it is directed against the golden knights? You can't have your cake and eat it to... There is a big difference between "vulgar" and "distasteful". When you go into anther teams lair, the lion awaits.

[Goldie Knight]

Wednesday, March 2, 2011 10 AM

Rangersfan94,

Your point is well taken, and I laughed when I read your post because it clearly demonstrates how unfair I am towards any Clarkson opponent. I have been so involved with Golden Knights hockey for so many years that my rose-colored glasses only permit me to view favorably many aspects of Clarkson University hockey. However, our seats are a distance away from the Pep Band and the student sections, so most generally I don't hear the cheers and jeers in their entirety. It is just entertaining to watch the students jump up and down and display their support for the Golden Knights.

For me, I always overlook character flaws in my best friends and focus only on the positive attributes of their friendship. Apparently, I do the same thing in regard to cheering for Clarkson hockey.

Your comment about the lion's den accurately describes most Clarkson opponent's arenas we have visited. Thank you for your comments.

You will probably be surprised to know that I am a Boston Bruins fans. And Nick Tremblay is an NHL draft choice of the Bruins. We are very pleased to see improvements in Nick's game this season. Hopefully, he will be feeling well enough recovered from the flu to be an influential factor against Harvard this weekend.

[joecct]

You've never sat in the Blue seats at MSG. :pBeen a long time since I was in them. Best fans are up there ('cause it was all we could afford).

[mk5188]

Goldie,

So you enjoy our antics against the other team, but not when it is directed against the golden knights? You can't have your cake and eat it to... There is a big difference between "vulgar" and "distasteful". When you go into anther teams lair, the lion awaits.

There's a big difference between a fleeting expletive and one that is on a sign that is up for the entire game. Saying (player) sucks, any chant against a goalie, etc. is ok in my book. Once it becomes in print is what I have the problem with, and I think is mroe what Goldie was referring to. Scott does a very good job of removing them from Cheel if one tries to creep in; other arenas should do the same.

However, taking the passion out of the fans is crap. This ain't some dainty game, this is one of the more violent sports.

[FireKnight]

There's a big difference between a fleeting expletive and one that is on a sign that is up for the entire game. Saying (player) sucks, any chant against a goalie, etc. is ok in my book. Once it becomes in print is what I have the problem with, and I think is mroe what Goldie was referring to. Scott does a very good job of removing them from Cheel if one tries to creep in; other arenas should do the same.

However, taking the passion out of the fans is crap. This ain't some dainty game, this is one of the more violent sports.

Well said mk. As far as the Houston Fieldhouse is concerned, I don't think we'll see such a large banner in print again anytime soon. They have a coach that respects the game and they have a President that is very supportive of hockey and all their athletic programs. Their new athletic facilities rival many D-1 schools.